Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- All Categories
- 2.3K StockCharts
- 387 SharpCharts
- 143 Other Charting Tools
- 67 Saved Charts and ChartLists
- 1.4K Scanning
- 72 Data Issues
- 172 Other StockCharts Questions
- 214 Technical Analysis
- 154 Using Technical Analysis
- 2 InterMarket and International
- 19 Market and Breadth Indicators
- 39 Market Analysis
- 105 Trading
- 105 Trading Strategies
- 164 S.C.A.N the StockCharts Answer Network forum
- 65 Using this StockCharts Answer Network forum
- 99 s.c.a.n. archives
- 17 Off-Topic
- 10 The Cogitation & Rumination Emporium
- 7 Forum Test Area
New Members: Be sure to confirm your email address by clicking on the link that was sent to your email inbox. You will not be able to post messages until you click that link.
Chart of EMA of 2 stocks
I'm pretty confident this can't be done, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
I'd like to see a chart of the 5 week (as a starting point) EMAs of (1) the stock I'm watching and (2) its industry group - as an indicator. On at least one stock I'm looking at they track reasonably well.
Crossovers or divergences might be useful.
And an additional question. Of the half dozen'ish places I've looked at, I have not found anything close to StockChart's scanning capabilities or its charting capabilities. (Its sorting capabilities could use significant improvement) Has anyone seen anything better?
I'd like to see a chart of the 5 week (as a starting point) EMAs of (1) the stock I'm watching and (2) its industry group - as an indicator. On at least one stock I'm looking at they track reasonably well.
Crossovers or divergences might be useful.
And an additional question. Of the half dozen'ish places I've looked at, I have not found anything close to StockChart's scanning capabilities or its charting capabilities. (Its sorting capabilities could use significant improvement) Has anyone seen anything better?
0
Comments
If you like that chartstyle then save it to your account using the Add New link directly under the chart. Give it a name, and number if you like, and it will be saved in your ChartStyles. If you give it a number, it will put a little rectangle on the left side of your charts for quickly selecting it. If you REALLY like it you can set it as your Default Style by clicking on the Save as Default link, also directly under the chart.
I have not seen anything better than the legacy area of StockCharts.com. Very flexible, fast, and featured. It's a shame that they don't have any programmers on staff, in my opinion, that can continue to improve it.
As far as sorting, it would be nice if they added more columns to the Summary view to sort on. Or allowed Sorting via the CandleGlance view. As it stands, I do most of my sorting via the use of the Rank By statement in a scan. You can just set up a Rank By scan to use explicitly for that purpose. You can put a bunch of Rank By statements in it and // the ones you don't want to use at the moment. You can only have one Rank By statement running at a time.
The ONLY drawback that I've encountered to this option is that IF you use an import for your lists, with additional information in that import, it's wiped in the results. The best way around this issue is to run your Rank By scan and then save the results to a different named list.
Of example. I import some lists for holdings. I import the cost basis in with the Name field. I import the % change on that holding into the Notes field. I may also use the import file to put my largest positions at the top of the list using a naming convention. So, when I look at the chartlist in 10 per page, I can see my cost basis and size ranking in the name. In the Notes field the % change is shown.
If I run a Rank By scan on that list, let's say Rank by Monthly CCI(10), the results can be saved into a list, but all of that cost basis, and % is not returned in the results. So I scanned My List. I save the results in My List Ranked.
Hope this helps?
// rank by [0 week ago RSI(13) - 0 week ago EMA(5, RSI(13)]
// rank by [weekly Plus DI - weekly Minus DI]
// rank by [[0 week ago close/40 week ago close]*100]-100
// rank by [1 day ago close / 0 day ago close]
// rank by [[0 week ago close/52 week ago close]*100]-100
They mostly don't work so well. They worked years ago.
.... the legacy area of StockCharts.com. Very flexible, fast, and featured. It's a shame that they don't have any programmers on staff, in my opinion, that can continue to improve it.
Another possibility is the ratio symbol $SYMBOL:$INDUSTRY, as I think @lmkwin suggests. For the largest stocks, the RS line will be flat for smaller (fewer companies) industries, so not much use. But for the smaller constituents, the RS line is pretty helpful. If you add an MA to the RS line, you can sometimes get early notice of strengthening stocks when the RS line climbs above falling MA (or vice versa for weakening stocks).
azp: I exclusively use the legacy StockCharts. Maybe 2 or 3 months after the new version came out I looked at it and saw it couldn't do some of what I considered critical to my approach. It may have improved, and I expect to look at it again. Some of what it does appears very useful, and some of that duplicates what my primary trading platform (Think or Swim) already does. Is it true that StockCharts does not have a programming team? Not even for maintenance?
markd: Behind my weekly price chart I already have $SYMBOL:$INDUSTRY. I also have $INDUSTRY behind price. They look interesting, but not particularly useful. I like interesting - but generally can't trade on it. Sometimes there is an offset between symbol and industry price, but at first glance it doesn't appear reliable. Some companies have significant weight in more than 1 industry (as few as 2) and cannot be properly categorized into one. Some are miscategorized. Some, such as many software stocks, could be more usefully categorized into the industry their software is applicable to. So it's likely that what I'm looking for would not be universally useful, but there may be some companies (perhaps many) it could be a very useful indicator for, something worth searching on. I'd just like to be able to check it out. I haven't checked if there are equal weighted industry ETFs such as RSP or EWSC for indices. Are you aware of any? That might alleviate your main concern.
I will look into your RS line suggestion.
RS is a rough guide - one factor in a weight of evidence selection process - not a signal by itself. For instance, if a stock has recently crossed above its RS MA, which is itself turning up, and stays above it on a range or down leg, then its probably due for more upside, provided the market as a whole remains favorable. I also like to see Force (251) rising accumulation that doesn't deteriorate commensurately with price, indicating (to me) "big money" confidence.
There are equal weight options for the SP500 sector etf's. Invesco has the equal weight versions, XLE and RYE for example. or RYT and XLK. Nothing similar for other index sectors or index industries that I'm aware of.
Seeing a sorted list is a great thing to do. I highly recommend it. The Rank By is a valuable tool in my activity. The only drawback that I've discovered to using it is that it will mess up the name and comment of an existing list if you have modified them via the Edit or via an import.
I don't believe that StockCharts has taken anything away that used to be there. They have added Symbol Summary to the legacy system, but haven't made any other obvious improvements or changes to it. I believe that there are no programmers of the old system still employed with them anymore. That is the only explanation that I can come up with as to why they haven't been able to change anything. Their programming staff has 3 years or less at StockCharts https://stockcharts.com/about/index.html I checked several LinkedIn profiles to arrive at that conclusion. I could be wrong. Often am.
markd and I had a brief conversation about this years ago, when it was still working. I believe the conversation had to do with the requirement of [brackets] to get it to work.
I was talking about functionality of the SharpCharts system. They didn't take any of the functionality away from it. Lack of improvements in the legacy SharpCharts system is something that I don't believe they have current in house capability at the moment. They did add the Symbol Summary link and partially completed it. "coming soon" is going on a year or so now for the incomplete parts. I do use that page often as it lists all the chartlists for that symbol as well as current pre-defined scans that were hit by the symbol.
My secondary indicators are in the attached chart. A primary indicator suggests that EXPO will probably go down next week or the following week. I will set a stop based on that indicator at 2 or 3% below the first support line. That line is a moving target, and on ThinkorSwim I can set it for where that target is at the time it is crossed.
I went to a 5 day (I think) seminar Alexander Elder (who created Force) put on at a ThinkorSwim event. I respect him and his indicators a lot. I suspect Force worked better before machine trading and day trading came into play. It's a really neat idea. It seems to me that the problem with this and other volume based indicators are that some very high volume days or weeks are tight battles between bulls and bears, and that whoever wins, by however narrow a margin, gets all the credit in the indicator.
In the weekly chart below you will see my secondary, but very valuable indicators on EXPO. Looking at the price chart only, I marked what I thought (at the moment) as the beginning of significant upturns (green) and the beginning of significant downturns (red) to see how well each of those indicators caught the moment. Incidentally, 1998 was the most recent down year (Jan 2-Dec31) for EXPO. It looks like MACD (with slightly edited parameters) was the best of these for EXPO at this time (EMA crossovers, which could probably be better tuned).
From what you say markd, it doesn't sound like RS is going to help me a lot.
All of this being what it is, EXPO, bought at the beginning of an uptrend would probably never need to be looked at again, merely accumulated over time.
I keep this info on all charts I am interested in. The top numbers are the percent gain that year, the bottom numbers are the percent gain since the beginning of 2018.
They weren't (aren't?) required in Rank by
Here's how I would use RS, price and Force to evaluate a candidate (this is retrospect of course, and a cherry-picked example for clarity, but the tools and principles of interpretation I would use in real time). Read from the bottom up - price action attracts attention first - new low on big volume closing above open near range high is counter trend behavior and possibly reversal behavior. So what evidence is there that a reversal might be coming?
https://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=TTEC&p=W&yr=2&mn=0&dy=0&id=p68673886694&a=1013171146
P.S. you have to be signed in to Stockcharts to see the complete chart.
For some of the signals you point out, there are significant (to me) drawdowns following the signal (except the last has no drawdown). Would you enter on the signal and hold through the drawdown (if there is one), or wait for the 0 column to turn back to Xs, or something else? Or does the CSS signal put the symbol on an "OK to buy" list so you don't necessarily enter on or near the signal at all, but maybe buy the subsequent sell signals, knowing the CSS signal is still valid and so overrides the sells?
The dynamic CSS pattern puts it on the "OK to Review" list. You could look at RS as a secondary indicator. I don't. The movement of the pattern often will be showing good RS in the 7xx column. RS between two candidates is not something that I have an opinion on either. Never studied it. I have studied, and continue to do so, the dynamic CSS pattern. I keep study portfolios of the CSS names for the MID, SML and QQQ on the Nasdaq Dorsey Wright platform. I also maintain a public chartlist on StockCharts.com for the more recent names that have been added to the studies. Nasdaq Dorsey Wright has several indexes used for ETF's that are RS and momentum based. If one were to focus only on RS, you'd be chasing your tail, as they do, in my opinion. Just like if you focused on using "buy" and "sell" signals on a point and figure chart. They aren't commands or instructions. They are useful information, but definitely not a Holy Grail.
The pattern is designed to identify "significant" distribution turning to "significant" accumulation. I think that it does a very good job of identifying these situations. Now, the question becomes how significant is significant? For this I'd turn to the alternate scales on the PnF chart. Like the % trend charts. I like to use a 3%x2 box reversal for further analysis but can use smaller or larger % and/or box reversal in order to get a clear picture of the activity within the default chart. After the 7xx or 2x6xx, ideally I'd like to see the chart show a reversal to O's and then reverse to X's.
The distribution could be a sign of shaking out weak hands, or re-accumulation techniques by the stronger hands. The accumulation could be short covering, or an attempt to lure in more sellers or a decisive breakout move. I prefer the last or 2nd to last sell signal in the CSS (consecutive sell signals) to have a longer column of O's. This is a sign of exhaustion. The "get me out at any price" crowd often is involved here. A long column of X's can also be a sign of exhaustion. The longer columns often will retrace. Longer columns also may be hiding gaps. Gaps don't show on PnF charts but you'll often find them inside longer columns. Whether gaps are important or not, is a topic I have no opinion on.
I recommend having a position established before the point where the 11th X would be shown had the 7xx column continued straight up. The idea isn't to be bottom fishing. The idea is to be involved with something that was showing signs of significant distribution that is now showing signs of significant accumulation.
Heck, you could also do the additional review on a markd stochastics chart. The dynamic CSS pattern is a great place to start looking in my opinion. For the past several years I've shared, on this forum, numerous charts showing the pattern I look for. I often find myself answering "after a dynamic CSS pattern", to the question "when would have been a good time to have gotten involved in this stock?"
I do apologize for hijacking this tread. Wasn't my intention. I was just pointing out alternate options or views on TTEC and EXPO that I find useful. Maybe others will also?
Certainly the largest cap stocks exert the most influence. I created 2 charts to see how close they really are. I thought there used to be a Price Relative indicator, but I might be wrong. The charts I made includes all 5 stocks with over a $1,000,000,000,000 market cap. Try to get your mind around that number, and the influence those companies have on absolutely everything. I tried (AAPL+MSFT+ GOOG+AMZN+FB)/5 but it didn't work, and haven't searched for an alternative way of expressing it. I color code weekly, daily, 5 minute charts. Weekly are brown.
As I was learning TA, I looked at P&F charts and didn't get them to work well for me. I think I should give them another try. Thanks a lot for sharing some thoughts on how to use these charts. Enlightening. Is there a way of back testing (and thereby refining) the results? What is NDW? I'm assuming a brokerage. Sometimes I have to call my brokerage and ask them something like: "I know I should know this, but what is 6+27". Not quite that bad, but there are times when that even isn't easy for me, and I scored very high on my GRE math, for instance. The joys of aging.
I'd love to share what I do, but not publicly and not made public. You seem very open about what you do. Thanks again.
As far as sharing the dynamic CSS pattern, and how to think about it via objective analysis, I believe that we are all in this together. My money doesn't move anything. The pattern is just a really nifty way to find what I'm looking for. If it helps you or others, that's fine with me. I've been using PnF charts since 2009 and it wasn't until 2013 when I started studying the CSS Strategy that I became comfortable with how to use them well. The CSS Strategy was created by Brian Randall, a Raymond James financial advisor, in 2000 and shared on the Dorsey Wright message board in 2013. I modified it to work for my tastes and temperament. The biggest key to successful investing is to invest... for the long term. You'll never have a double bagger or triple bagger or greater without the ability to hold on through some drawdowns.
I can guarantee you that very few have the the patience to stay with one thing and take the time to study it. To learn how it works and if it works for them. To own it. Everyone wants "backtests" and data provided to them. I'll give you a good back test. Look at AAPL. Go back to the dynamic CSS pattern shown on the chart in 2009. Split adjusted 4.50ish entry. If you would have held it to today you would be very happy. However, few people would have that type of patience to realize the full benefits of using Dynamic CSS Patterns. Or the next DCP at 17.50 in 2013. How you would have handled position effects your backtesting results. Or the next one in 2019 around 43. or the next one..... AAPL is around 150 today.
Very few have the patience required. It can't be taught. But it can be learned. There is so much trading information readily available. If you watch StockCharts authors, they are often at opposing ends of the market in a matter of a few weeks. Oh, it's bad. Oh, it's good. So much noise, and it's intentional to a certain extent. You have to produce material for consumption. I don't expect that most will gain any value from my sharing the Dynamic CSS Patterns. It requires a bit of work.
A thought from Howard Prenzel's incredible PnF book, Dynamic Trend Line Investing. He talks about how it took the author 30 years to uncover the information shared in the book. It revealed some incredibly powerful patterns and how to identify them early on. He said that the vast majority reading the book would gain no insights from reading the book. For them the market would remain a mystery. And those that did gain insights wouldn't want it any other way.
The first part of investing/trading starts with a useful scan. Some are for establishing or adding to your universe, some are for investigating that universe for entry or exit. Some are for shorter term trading. I have some long term shorts.
I have a default Start Scan that looks like this. This is my most recent scan saved as Start Scan
Comments appreciated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
## (Start Scan) ##
// Note ~252 trading days per year
// ------------------- Start of Universal Opening Parameters ------------------ //
[Type = Stock] AND [Country is US]
// and [ [Group is SP500] or [Group is SP400] or [Group is SP600] ]
and [SMA(20,close)*SMA(20,volume)>2500000] AND [Close > 4 ]
and [Group is NOT ETF]
//and [Exchange is NOT OTCMKT] //and [Exchange is NOT Pink]
// ---------------------------- End of Universal Opening Parameters ----------------------- //
//--------------------------------- Main Thrust of Scan --------------------------------- //
and [ [2 week ago weekly RSI(13) < 42] or [3 week ago weekly RSI(13) < 42] ]
and [weekly RSI(13) > weekly EMA(8,RSI(13))]
//--------------------------------- End of Main Thrust ---------------------------------- //
//------------------- Everything Below is used to reduce the number of hits --------------------//
//--------------- while also Refining the Results - adjust comments and parameters -------------//
//and [ 0 week ago weekly Max(2,Volume) > 3 week ago weekly Max(10,Volume)*1.01] //
//and [ [0 week ago EMA(11) - 0 week ago EMA(22)] - [3 week ago EMA(11) - 3 week ago EMA(22)] > 10 ]
//and [0 week ago Max(50,close) / 51 week ago Max(50,close) >1.1]
//and [Weekly Close < Upper EMA Env(11,16)] and [Weekly Close > EMA(11)] //
//and [ Slope(30) > 0.15 ] //
//and [ 0 day ago Close > 1 day ago Max(4, Close) ] // highest close for 5 DAYS //
//and [ 0 day ago Close < 1 day ago Min(4, Close) ] // lowest close for 5 DAYS //
//and [ weekly Plus DI - weekly Minus DI > 20 ] //
//and [weekly close < weekly open ] //for shorts //
//and [weekly close / weekly low < 1.03] //for shorts (close close to low) //
//and [weekly close > weekly open ] //for longs //
//and [weekly high / weekly close < 1.02] //for longs (close close to high) //
//and [ weekly RSI(9) > weekly EMA(7, RSI(9)) ] //
//and [ [weekly RSI(13) - weekly EMA(5, weekly RSI(13))] - [1 week ago RSI(13) - 1 week ago EMA(5, weekly RSI(13))] > 1 ]
//and [weekly EMA(11) x weekly EMA(22) ] //
//and [ 3 week ago weekly RSI(13) < 3 week ago EMA(5, RSI(13)) ] //
//and [ 0 week ago Close / 1 week ago Close > 1.03 ] // 1.03=3% //
// and [ 0 day ago Close < Upper BB(11,14)*0.80 ] //
//and [ Weekly Max(5,Weekly Close) > 5 week ago Weekly Max(150,Weekly Close)*1.15 ]
//----------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- //
RANK BY [ 0 week ago close / 2 week ago close ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a similar Start Scan that starts like this
// -----------------------------Standard Initial Criteria----------------------------- //
[type = stock] AND [country is US]
and [favorites list is 31] // 0001 Bull mConsolidated
// ---------------------------- End of Standard Initial Criteria------------------------- //
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several different scans that can get you into 0001 Bull mConsolidated
Here are several:
//--------------------------------------------- Main Thrust of Scan --------------------------------------------- //
//___ LONG TERM GROWTH (8 Years) - This section establishes consistent meaningful consistent growth over 4 years ___//
and [ 0 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 24 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 24 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 48 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 48 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 72 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.09 ]
and [ 72 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 96 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.09 ]
and [ 0 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 24 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 24 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 48 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 48 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 72 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.09 ]
and [ 72 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 96 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.09 ]
//___ end of LONG TERM GROWTH continuous growth for 8 years __________//
// --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------//
//___ LONG TERM GROWTH (8 Years) - Offset by 12 months ___//
and [ 12 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 36 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 36 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 60 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 60 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 84 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.1 ]
and [ 84 month ago Max(24,monthly close) / 108 month ago Max(24, monthly close) >1.1 ] //108 months = 9 years +224 = 11 years
and [ 12 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 36 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 36 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 60 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.15 ]
and [ 60 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 84 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.1 ]
and [ 84 month ago Min(24,monthly close) / 108 month ago Min(24, monthly close) >1.1 ]
//___ end of LONG TERM GROWTH section - Offset by 12 months __________//
//--------------------------------------------- End of Main Thrust --------------------------------------------- //
This is a very similar one
//--------------------------------------------- Main Thrust of Scan --------------------------------------------- //
//___ LONG TERM GROWTH (4 Years) - This section establishes consistent meaningful consistent growth over 4 years ___//
and [ 0 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 12 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.05 ]
and [ 12 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 24 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 24 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 36 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 36 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 48 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 0 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 12 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.05 ]
and [ 12 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 24 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 24 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 36 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 36 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 48 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
//___ end of LONG TERM GROWTH continuous growth for 4 years __________//
// --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------//
//___ LONG TERM GROWTH (4 Years) - Offset by 6 months ___//
and [ 6 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 18 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.05 ]
and [ 18 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 30 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 30 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 42 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
// and [ 42 month ago Max(12,monthly close) / 54 month ago Max(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 6 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 18 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.05 ]
and [ 18 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 30 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
and [ 30 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 42 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
// and [ 42 month ago Min(12,monthly close) / 54 month ago Min(12, monthly close) >1.04 ]
//___ end of LONG TERM GROWTH section - Offset by 6 months __________//
//--------------------------------------------- End of Main Thrust --------------------------------------------- //
and here's a list of some of my scans
I share my observations with the hope that my years of study can help others and also that my observations don't die with me. I've enjoyed the fruits of my "labor", perhaps someone else can do the same. Like I said before, it's highly unlikely, but it is what it is.
Very nice work there. Well done.
Here, you'll see the top 2 sections of a chart below.
A little description. The top 3 numbers above 2018, 2019,2020 are the appreciation of the stock that year. The 2 numbers below on 2019 & 2020 are the appreciation of those 2 stocks since 2018. I sometimes do the annual appreciation for previous years, sometimes not.
The blue on the top: I'll tell myself if I consider the stock to be a good long term prospect. I'll list the most recent down year, and show the date incorporated, and the date it went public.
The horizontal arrow that starts in 2015 and ends in 2018 shows how many weeks between when a decline started and when it got to a point that it never got that low again. I generally show every time that happened in the last 4-6 years. Sometimes showing dips as low as ~40 weeks, but I try to show all dips that lasted at least 52 weeks.
The first indicator I have is probably the most reliable and most precise one I have, and no one else knew about it before this post. It is the blue vertical lines. Some stocks may go years before this indicator shows up, but for FRPT we had 5 signals in about 4 years. Follow the blue line down and you can see that each signal was an outstanding point to get in. And once in, price will never get as low as the entry point again - ever. Those lines are when the RSI crosses above the 40% line and the RSI is already above its EMA, or crosses above it within ~2 bars past that vertical line. It isn't rare that they both happen simultaneously. It looks like we may have a buy signal within a week or so. Hopefully I'll talk about the indicators I have on the price chart and how I use them. It won't be tomorrow for sure.
I look at these 1280 pixel charts on a 27" screen. When I post a chart, I recognize that things may be difficult to see. Nothing I can do about that, sorry.